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Judah L. Rosner, Ph.D.
This is the first interview in a series on the career of Dr. Judah L. Ro= sner, NIDDK. It was conducted on 17 December 1999, in his office on t= he third floor of Building 5, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, Mary= land. The interviewer is Dr. Buhm Soon Park.
Rosner:  = ; P= art of your job is to look backwards and to look forwards, and then you...&= nbsp; We=E2=80=99ve been so privileged to live during a period when genetic= s and molecular biology just took off and has come into such fruition that = now, today, every company is named Gen or Bio. And congressmen know a= bout it and people are subject of New Yorker interviews and articl= es. So scientists are slowly moving, quickly moving, from being peopl= e who were just considered as quiet little strange people who worked in som= e dark place and had some interest in something which nobody could relate t= o really, to people who are now part of the popular culture almost.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; A kind of icon.
Rosner:  = ; K= ind of an icon. And it=E2=80=99s slowly changing, because up until re= cently, in popular culture, the scientist was seen in two different ways, I= think. If you watch the Saturday--I don=E2=80=99t know if you have c= hildren, but if you watch Saturday morning comics, so there are two scienti= sts. There=E2=80=99s one scientist. He=E2=80=99s an older guy.&= nbsp; He has a beautiful daughter. He has--somehow or other, he doesn= =E2=80=99t have a wife, so he=E2=80=99s kind of asexual. He has gray = hair and he just sort of is some brilliant guy who thinks about things and = has come up with fabulous ideas, but he doesn=E2=80=99t have any social sen= se, he doesn=E2=80=99t have any business sense. He=E2=80=99s just thi= s dreamy guy.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Einstein.
Rosner:  = ; Y= eah, Einstein kind of a guy. And some crooks want to steal his thing = very bad reasons, and then some good, handsome guy has to come along and sa= ve him and the daughter and the science. So that=E2=80=99s one. Then,= the other one is a scientist as the evil guy, as the wizard, as the guy wh= o has the ability to do terrible things, and he=E2=80=99s going to control = the world, you know, the James Bond kind of scientist.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; The Frankenstein.
Rosner:  = ; T= he Frankenstein, that=E2=80=99s right.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; That=E2=80=99s one of the popular images of scientists= .
Rosner:  = ; A= nd I think those are two opposite images and neither one looks at the scien= tist as a real person. They look at the scientist as sort of an extre= me kind of strange person who doesn=E2=80=99t really live in the ordinary w= orld that most people live. And this is slowly beginning to change, p= artly some popular books. I mean, even if you think about it, the Har= rison Ford movies where he=E2=80=99s an anthropologist or an archeologist..= .
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Indiana Jones.
Rosner:  = ; I= ndiana Jones. Even there, he=E2=80=99s a scientist, but now he combin= es this muscular, good-looking aspect so necessary for acceptance in popula= r culture.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Right.
Rosner:  = ; B= ut if I can take a hint from here, going back to my education, you asked wh= o influenced me to become a scientist. I was raised as an Orthodox Je= wish person in an Orthodox Jewish family, but at an early age, I decided th= at I didn=E2=80=99t believe in God. A lot of it had to do with the fact tha= t some things that were described in the books that we read just had no rel= ationship to reality. So I had this big conflict in my life between, = on the one hand, religion, which was the world to come, and the other hand = was the real world of science, and science seemed to satisfy. Science= seemed to give answers. Science showed how, step by step, you could = understand something, and that really appealed to me.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; And your secondary education period?
Rosner:  = ; I= n early, I would say before second, I would say in elementary school alread= y, I was interested in science. And I can remember several very cruci= al events. One was, my sisters were older and they worked as secretar= ies for the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company, and they brought=E2=80=A6t= hey knew I was interested in science. Metropolitan Life Insurance Com= pany at that time produced a number of little booklets on Louis Pasteur, Ro= bert Koch, Samuel Weiss, Lister, all of the great people in bacteriology, i= nfectious disease.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Yes, right.
Rosner:  = ; A= nd they were these pastel-colored books on the outside, but inside they wer= e readable, even for somebody who was maybe 12, 13 years old and they were = very interesting. And I think... I have looked back and I=E2=80= =99ve realized that that was one of the earliest seeds in my interest in mi= crobiology and bacteria. In fact, there was a woman that gave a lecture at = the NIH, and I=E2=80=99m really sorry I couldn=E2=80=99t go to her lecture.= She was a science historian from Pennsylvania, and she talked about,= according to the topic of her title, she was talking about Metropolitan Li= fe Insurance Company and how it had some influence on these things. I= was planning to get in touch with her, and somehow or other I lost the pie= ce of paper and it didn=E2=80=99t happen. So I think that was one important= thing. And then I read Arrowsmith.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Arrowsmith, yes.
Rosner:  = ; V= ery important.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Yeah, very important.
Rosner:  = ; A= nd then another one by DeKruif and those two books together, again, really = affirmed sort of an idea of studying bacteria. It was really fascinat= ing. It was really very interesting.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; And also studying biology on the basis of physical che= mistry.
Rosner:  = ; W= ell, at that point, that wasn=E2=80=99t there so much. There was more= sort of from a medical point of view, looking through a microscope, slides= , staining, seeing which bacteria was present someplace, can you connect th= is bacteria to this disease. Snother important person, a very important per= son, was my brother.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; The name?
Rosner:  = ; H= is name is Benjamin Rosner, and he was almost 10 years older than me. = He was kind of an intermediate father for me, and my real father was this = very religious person, very kind, very good person. My brother was mu= ch more practical and he was very much interested in education, and he rose= to a very high position. He was the dean of the School of E= ducation for City University of New York, and then later at Temple Universi= ty in Philadelphia.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Did you grow up in New York City?
Rosner:  = ; W= e grew up in Brooklyn, yes. My parents were immigrants. I remember on= e day--my brother was already in college, and he was, when he first started= college, he was pre-med. He very quickly changed to education, and t= hat=E2=80=99s what his life interest became. But while he was there, = he had to take some biology courses and he had to take some first aid cours= e, so he had this first aid book at home. And I remember very clearly= , one day he explained to me how breathing occurs, that when you take a bre= ath, you expand your rib cage and you lower your diaphragm, and by making t= hat extra volume, you cause air to come into your lungs. It was such = a startling revelation to me that there was a physical basis to something t= hat we did automatically, because back in the =E2=80=9850s, and probably fo= r most people today, you don=E2=80=99t think of yourself of being composed = of cells, of something running around in your blood, of your heart beating,= of being part of the physical world. Your body is something differen= t. Until you=E2=80=99re much older and you start going to doctors and= they start telling you this, what hurts you is your liver and what hurts y= ou is this, you have no concept of all of those things. You know if y= ou get stuck, you bleed, and if you run fast, you get out of breath, or may= be you have a headache, so you know pain, you know touch, you know sensatio= ns. But you don=E2=80=99t really have any idea of what=E2=80=99s insi= de your body or how it works. And I remember what a revelation this w= as, that there was something, just a simple physical process of expanding t= he volume that caused the air to come into your lungs, and that was a very = important point for me.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Yesterday, I _____ my daughter _____ the kids=E2=80=99= program, and there was an actor--I don=E2=80=99t know whether you know the= actor _____--and that program was designed to show how lung is operating a= nd _____.
Rosner:  = ; Y= es.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; And the school kids all of a sudden became very _____ = take a look at _____ and have some problems. And my daughter is only = three years old and she asked me, =E2=80=9CWhat is lung?=E2=80=9D and I sai= d, =E2=80=9CIt=E2=80=99s inside.=E2=80=9D I couldn=E2=80=99t give a c= orrect answer. But I--this is physical basis and things like that.
Rosner:  = ; Y= es. Actually, you reminded me that my, back in those days, the housew= ife would get a whole chicken. You didn=E2=80=99t go to the store and= get parts wrapped in cellophane. You got a whole chicken. And = it may have been cut up for you by the butcher, but once you came home, she= took out the inside of the chicken, and sometimes she would show that to m= e, showed me the heart or the liver. So you also begin to get a littl= e bit of an idea about those things.
And another important person in my life was my first high school general= science and then he was my biology teacher. And he was an Orthodox J= ew, but somehow he made it possible for us to think that while, of course, = the Bible and creation story have to be absolutely true, that we could also= think in terms of evolution as maybe having occurred within the biblical f= ramework. So he made it possible to not have just the total clash, bu= t to see a middle position between religion and science.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; When was the time?
Rosner:  = ; T= hat was when I was in the second year of high school, so I was 14 or 15 yea= rs old then, 14 years old.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; In the 1940s?
Rosner:  = ; S= o that would have been 1953.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Fifty-three.
Rosne: = &nb= sp; So that was also very important.
So there was a lot of emotional involvement, so, for me, the decision to= be a scientist was more than just, oh, I=E2=80=99ll be an accountant, I=E2= =80=99ll be a chemist, I=E2=80=99ll be a this, I=E2=80=99ll be a that. = ; It had a lot of implications for me as a way of leading my life, not just= as something I=E2=80=99m going to do earn some money. It turned out = I didn=E2=80=99t even think about it in terms of earning money. I tho= ught in terms of, well, there must be some way I will get paid while I=E2= =80=99m doing this which I want to do.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; The search for the truth.
Rosner:  = ; Y= es. So that was certainly a very important part of why I became a sci= entist.
And when I went to college, I went to Columbia, and the people at Columb= ia College--this was from 1956 to 1960--it was a group of people who had be= en in the lead in biology, say, 10 or 15 years before. They were peop= le who really enjoyed the cell, and my most important influence there was a= man by the name of Theodocius Dibjanski [sp.]. And I don=E2=80=99t k= now if you know his name. He was a Russian by birth, back in Kiev, I = think, and he came to the U.S. and he worked on the drissophilla [sp.] with= T.H. Morgan and the beginning of the whole genetic rebirth with Morgan.&nb= sp; And he wrote a textbook. So, you see, I have Albert Einstein next= to Martilyn Monroe.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Yeah, very impressive. Two cultural icons.
Rosner:  = ; A= nd then I have--this is Monet, the artist.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Painter.
Rosner:  = ; Y= eah, here=E2=80=99s the painter. And that=E2=80=99s Hank Greenberg, b= aseball player.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Oh.
Rosner:  = ; D= ibjanski [sp.] wrote this book, Principles of Genetics. I th= ink it came out in the =E2=80=9850s, =E2=80=9858, and if you look at this b= ook, it has some chemical stuff, understanding about some metabolism being = involved in defects. But what does it have about... This is =E2= =80=9858, so Watson was 53. Okay. What does it have about...&nb= sp; Part of chapter 28, okay, 28, =E2=80=9COrganization of Genetic Material= .=E2=80=9D So first it shows chromosomes of drissophilla [sp.], which= have very large chromosomes under certain conditions. Wait a second.= Probability. Okay. So here is physical structure of the = genetic material. So when does DNA get mentioned here? So we ha= ve HB 74, it starts with DNA, it tells you the basic structure of DNA, show= s the double helix. That=E2=80=99s it.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Two pages.
Rosner:  = ; Y= eah. So maybe another page here, something about RNA, polypeptides.= p>
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Right.
Rosner:  = ; T= hat=E2=80=99s it, that=E2=80=99s it.
Now, he was actually an interesting scientist. He worked mostly on= population genetics. And he was interested in genetics and evolution= , and he put together what=E2=80=99s considered a great synthesis of showin= g how genetics and evolution go hand in hand, how, if you understand geneti= cs, you can now begin to understand evolution, and that was one of his majo= r synthesis.
He was also a great humanist, and he always made clear--heredity, what i= s heredity? What you inherit from your father as a trust of $500,000 = is not the same heredity that you inherit from your father through the gene= s. So genetic inheritance and social inheritance are very distinct ki= nds of things.
He was a very interesting, very _____ man. And I think a year ago = or so there was an issue of--there were some reports about him in PNAS wher= e somebody went through and talked about his life and was dedicated to him.= He was a wonderful man. _____.
So I came under his influence, but he was still an old-fashioned genetic= ist. And then there were embryologists, cytologists, physiologists, b= ut still a little bit more connected to cells as understanding life through= cells, but not through understanding of the cell through chemistry.
And when I left Columbia to go to graduate school, I went first to Yale = to work with another drissophilla [sp.] person, but I found very quickly th= at my interest was growing in bacteria and the new bacterial genetics that = was coming up. And Joshua Letterberg [sp.] wrote a book, a collection= of important papers in bacterial genetics, and that book was very importan= t to me.
And then, just very shortly after that, the man who I went to work with = wrote a wonderful collection of papers, this man, Edward Addleberg [sp.], a= t Yale, of papers on bacterial genetics, and this was just the beginning.&n= bsp; So =E2=80=9851 was the paper by Letterberg [sp.], and this then was ab= out how we know what the nature of mutation is, the nature of infection wit= h viruses, the nature of bacterial mating, where two bacteria come together= and DNA is transferred from one bacteria to another, and that was basicall= y Letterberg=E2=80=99s [sp.] major discovery. It really opened up ent= irely the way to manipulate bacteria so that you could understand the natur= e of genetics, so you could move genes from one cell to another cell. = That was very important.
So, if you looked back, you could see how you can trace a series of ment= ors and of developments that occurred at a particular time, sort of tended = to channel interest in a particular direction.
So I left the drissophilla [sp.] laboratory and I went to work with this= man, Addleberg [sp.], who was over in the medical school in another depart= ment, the Department of Microbiology, and that=E2=80=99s where I got my Ph.= D.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; I see, under him.
Rosner:  = ; U= nder him. But, in fact, he was--I hadn=E2=80=99t completed my degree,= and he was going to go away for a year on a sabbatical in Paris, and I met= a man by the name of Michael Yarmalinski [sp.], and Yarmalinski [sp.] had = just moved to the NIH, to the Laboratory of Molecular Biology. And he= invited me to come and finish my degree in his lab.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; In his lab.
Rosner:  = ; A= t the NIH, and then stay on and do a postdoc with him.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; I see. When did you come?
Rosner:  = ; S= o I came here in 1965.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Sixty-five.
Rosner:  = ; Y= es. So it was, I think, September of =E2=80=9865, is when I came here= , and I started to work with Michael Yarmalinski [sp.]. And then he s= ubsequently left the NIH. He went away to Paris for a few years and I= stayed on at the NIH.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; In which section?
Rosner:  = ; O= kay. So, Michael Yarmalinkski [sp.] and Bob Martin [sp.] were the two= main people in Bruce Ames=E2=80=99 [sp.] section.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; I see.
Rosner:  = ; B= ob Martin [sp.] worked very closely with Bruce Ames [sp.]. Bob Martin= [sp.] did most of the biochemistry; Bruce Ames [sp.] did most of the genet= ics, and they had a very, very fruitful collaboration for many years. = They wrote scores of papers on histidine biosynthesis and the genetic basi= s of it. Many things came out of that lab.
And then Bruce Ames [sp.] left, and I don=E2=80=99t know--I would say th= e late =E2=80=9860s, early =E2=80=9870s, about =E2=80=9869 or something.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; When Dr. Davies told you _____ Gordon Tompkins=E2=80= =99 [sp.] lab.
Rosner:  = ; R= ight.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; And Bruce Ames [sp.] said, =E2=80=9CWell, it=E2=80=99s= time for me to leave.=E2=80=9D
Rosner:  = ; R= ight. So he went to Berkeley. Bruce went to Berkeley. And= then Bob became the section head. So then I was--I then became an in= dependent worker in that section, but I didn=E2=80=99t really have very muc= h to do with Bob Martin [sp.] at the time. It=E2=80=99s only been abo= ut 10-12 years ago that Bob, who had after a while stopped working on bacte= ria and started working on SP40, did a lot of work on SP40 and... He = was interested in origins of replication of chromosome in cells. And = then he decided that he couldn=E2=80=99t really keep that up and he had an = interest in writing plays. So he went to part time and thought if he= =E2=80=99s going to be part time, it would be better to be associated with = me and to work with bacteria, because that=E2=80=99s something you can do f= aster. It doesn=E2=80=99t require a lot of help to maintain the tissu= e-culture cells.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Writing plays?
Rosner:  = ; S= o, he has written a number of plays, at least two of which are directly rel= ated to science, and he=E2=80=99s now finishing a huge work having to do wi= th a Baltimore case. So when you speak to Bob, you=E2=80=99ll have to= devote a lot of time in talking to him.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Well, this year, one of the prizes for the History of = Sscience, in the History of Science Society, goes to a historian who deals = with a Baltimore case.
Rosner:  = ; W= hich one?
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; It=E2=80=99s written by Daniel J. Kevelross [sp.], who= is a professor in Cal Tech and who deals with, who describes, who traces h= istory _____ Baltimore case and the NIH.
Rosner:  = ; W= ell, you=E2=80=99ll get another point of view from Bob. He=E2=80=99ll= give you another point of view. He=E2=80=99s followed that case very= carefully.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Oh, really? Interesting.
Rosner:  = ; B= ut Bob has written--he wrote one play called =E2=80=9CExperiments,=E2=80=9D= having to do with the question of how you make a decision as to what is ri= ght and what is wrong. So this was a long time ago, and it was perfor= med by some amateur groups, having to do with a question of whether somebod= y had found some virus that caused cancer, and was it proved or not proved.= And then he wrote more recently one called =E2=80=9CA Stampede of Ze= bras,=E2=80=9D which is really fabulous. It=E2=80=99s been produced b= y a number of college drama departments and it=E2=80=99s been read and used= for many ethics, biological ethics classes, because he takes a laboratory,= a fictitious laboratory, where there=E2=80=99s a whole chain of command.&n= bsp; There=E2=80=99s the head laboratory, the head investigator, then his m= ajor postdoctoral fellow, who really runs the lab, and the postdocs and all= that, and takes an issue of a finding that they had made and they had publ= ished and which was very exciting and new and was going to be the basis of = getting more funding and proceeding on very important work, and a new postd= oc comes to the lab, and her job is to reproduce the experiments to start w= ith, and she can=E2=80=99t reproduce the experiments. And, of course,= she=E2=80=99s blamed because she=E2=80=99s stupid, she=E2=80=99s new, she= =E2=80=99s doing something wrong, and no matter what happens, she can=E2=80= =99t get it done. And then, to make the story short--he=E2=80=99ll gi= ve you a copy, I=E2=80=99m sure; you should ask for a copy of this--the mai= n guy, the one who runs the laboratory, a senior postdoc, decides he has to= go and do the experiments himself, and he has to go to the freezer and to = get out his old samples and to reproduce the experiment, that it=E2=80=99s = very important. And somebody has pulled the plug on the freezer, and = all of the samples are ruined. So now the question is, who did it?&nb= sp; Who=E2=80=99s responsible for this? And then it=E2=80=99s--what I= think he points out in this play is that, how each person in the laborator= y has a certain vested interest in what the results of the experiment are.&= nbsp; So the main investigator says, =E2=80=9CLook, if it=E2=80=99s not for= me being able to go and sell these results and get grants, I can=E2=80=99t= keep the lab going, I can=E2=80=99t offer you fellowships and scholarships= and positions.=E2=80=9D And the guy underneath, =E2=80=9CWell, I hav= e to go on and move on to my next job, and I want to get a good job. = I=E2=80=99ve done this great work, and why can=E2=80=99t you get this stuff= done?=E2=80=9D So he sort of shows each person in the lab their part= icular motivation and how each of them could possibly have a reason for the= experiments not working or for trying to make the experiment work, or did = the experiments ever really work in the first place. So this is close= to the Baltimore case. This touches very much on the Baltimore case.= So it shows how there are a lot of forces going to cause pressure in= the laboratory as to what is to getting the experiments to work.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; You know, there are lots of case studies of scientific= laboratory in the universities and industry, and not many of the laborator= ies in the government, especially on NIH. There is no case study.
Rosner:  = ; R= eally?
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; And so, I=E2=80=99m really interested in how the labor= atory has been _____ and in what components, you know, something, that ther= e may be social layers and administrative, director, or lab branches, _____= and postdocs and, as you mentioned, the experiment means differently to ea= ch person. And I am particularly interesting in how, to what extent N= IH laboratory is different from the university laboratory, and did you have= any first impressions when you came here in 1967?
Rosner:  = ; T= hat=E2=80=99s a good question.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Just coming out of your Yale University laboratory?&nb= sp; And what was your, you know, first impression?
Rosner:  = ; W= ell, at that time I was still actually a graduate student.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Right.
Rosner:  = ; B= ut I would say--and I think it is still absolutely true today--that, in the= labs that I have worked in... Well, my career has only been in the L= aboratory of Molecular Biology, so I=E2=80=99ve been here from 1965 till to= day. But I think it=E2=80=99s true in the other labs that I know abou= t. If you have an idea, if you are a summer student, a high school su= mmer student, and you have an interesting idea, your idea is thought of ser= iously, so that you are immediately a scientist. A scientist is not n= ecessarily your degrees or your qualifications or your experience. A = scientist is a person who is thinking about an experiment and who has a cri= tical mind about it, and who has a creative mind and starts to think about = variations and how could we find this and how could we prove that. An= d as long as you are talking, thinking seriously about the science and you = talk about it, what you say is accepted and dealt with just as equal as any= body else.
Now, if it=E2=80=99s a question of opinion, of course, you know, somebod= y more senior and who has more experience, of course, can say, =E2=80=9CNo,= this will never work. You don=E2=80=99t really understand what goes = into it.=E2=80=9D But in terms of saying something, if you say someth= ing, if it=E2=80=99s intelligent, it=E2=80=99s appreciated. It=E2=80= =99s not, =E2=80=9CNo,=E2=80=9D and it=E2=80=99s dismissed.
So I would say that immediately you=E2=80=99re a scientist. You wa= lk into the laboratory, you are immediately accepted as a scientist. = And you go to a seminar and anybody can speak, anybody can raise a criticis= m of an experiment, every... And that=E2=80=99s definitely true about= this laboratory, it=E2=80=99s true about the Molecular Biology Laboratory = as I know it. I don=E2=80=99t know the more clinical laboratories.&nb= sp; I just don=E2=80=99t have any experience. But if I go to any semi= nar here at the NIH, I feel that I can ask a question.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; So, as compared with the university, this is less auth= oritarian or...
Rosner:  = ; N= o. I wouldn=E2=80=99t say it=E2=80=99s less, but I would say they=E2= =80=99re both non-authoritarian, in my experience.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Uh-huh, I see.
Rosner:  = ; Y= ou know, we understand, we hear about the German kind of university system = where nobody stands up until the professor stands up, and nobody asks a que= stion until the professor asks the question.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Actually, I grew up in that.
Rosner:  = ; O= h, is that right?
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; I came from originally Korea, and in Korea, only profe= ssors can raise a question. The students cannot _____ sitting behind = and see what the show is going on.
Rosner:  = ; R= ight. Very different. I think it=E2=80=99s completely different= . Anybody can ask a question.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Right. So, at Yale and at...
Rosner:  = ; S= o, at Yale and...
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; You felt kind of continuous, continued.
Rosner:  = ; Y= es. It did not seem different; it did not seem at all different.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; So, you may feel like coming to another university.
Rosner:  = ; I= t feels like a university campus. And in the early =E2=80=9870s, when= I started to look around for maybe taking a teaching position, and there w= ere lots of opportunities in those days, I would go to a university and may= be the first person who I would be introduced to would be the provost, and = the provost would ask me, =E2=80=9CWhat size grant will you bring to this j= ob?=E2=80=9D And I realized that at the NIH, I was in a more academic= institution than the universities, so the university was so much more subj= ect to the pressure of money, whereas at the NIH, we don=E2=80=99t talk abo= ut money. And in this laboratory, which is maybe different than other= s, the budget is not broken up into each section and to each individual.&nb= sp; So the laboratory gets a budget and nobody is told, =E2=80=9CYou can=E2= =80=99t buy this chemical today because I need to buy some.=E2=80=9D
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; So, flexibility within...
Rosner:  = ; G= reat flexibility, great flexibility, and a great lack of authoritarian.&nbs= p; So it=E2=80=99s the section chief. The lab chief doesn=E2=80=99t s= ay, =E2=80=9CYou must do this,=E2=80=9D to the sections. It=E2=80=99s= all on the basis of equality. And after Gordon Tompkins [sp.] died, = then it was a rotating lab chief. Every year, there was one lab chief= change. And the chief did not have any special advantage.
In other labs at the NIH, the lab chief is very important, determines ev= erything that=E2=80=99s going to happen in his lab.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; I see.
Rosner:  = ; S= o this lab has always had separate individuals who had small labs, like mys= elf, at most one postdoc with me. Many times I worked by myself. = ; But even Kawazawa [sp.], who at most had three people working with him, i= f he went to Japan, he could have had 20.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Right.
Rosner:  = ; E= asily, very.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; I was very intrigued by the fact that the NIH senior i= nvestigators do not have Ph.D. candidates. I mean, do not have _____.= They have some postdocs, not many.
Rosne: = &nb= sp; Right.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; And so, probably some of the scientists here may miss = a candidate in laboratory because of that, you know, producing a lot and pu= blish a lot and get in the limelight in the society. But, as you said= , here, it=E2=80=99s _____ running a small scale, but it=E2=80=99s very sat= isfactory _____ every time. In the university, if you=E2=80=99re a pr= ofessor, you never _____.
Rosner:  = ; R= ight. And that=E2=80=99s something which, unfortunately, the academic= world doesn=E2=80=99t understand. So if you are in the academic worl= d, you get a grant for $3 million, the chairman of the department will give= you anything you want. And you can have as many students as you can = get, as you can pay for. Here you=E2=80=99re limited. You=E2=80= =99re limited by space, you=E2=80=99re limited by your director as to how m= uch you can have. So there=E2=80=99s much more... So we enjoy t= he fact that we don=E2=80=99t have to spend six months of the year writing = grant requests, but we have the down side that we don=E2=80=99t have the un= limited resources of a grant. So, people here, many of the people who= are lab chiefs, up until recently, mostly all of them worked in the labora= tory. Kawazawa [sp.] worked from 9:00 till 5:00 and then came back at= 8:00 until 1:00, and he wasn=E2=80=99t shuffling papers. He was doin= g experiments. Whereas...
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; _____ doctoral students.
Rosner:  = ; Y= eah, yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly. If you see Bob Martin [sp.], he= =E2=80=99ll tell you he comes in the morning, 6:00, and leaves at 4:00 or 5= :00, and he=E2=80=99ll be here... He went on a trip to Venice for vac= ation. He came back Friday, Saturday he was in the lab; he was in the= lab Sunday. He was in the lab Saturday, he was in the lab Sunday.&nb= sp; And he made a number of new oligonucleotides. He synthesized new = genes to start experiments going.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; It=E2=80=99s not because he was under pressure of gett= ing tenure or...
Rosner:  = ; N= ope. Not under any pressure. Just, he wants to do the work.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Oh. I think it=E2=80=99s _____ different from ac= ademic atmosphere where each lab has a professor and the professor has post= docs and the Ph.D. candidates and _____ laboratory and some hierarchy.
Rosner:  = ; R= ight.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; But here, I find that there is a structure in paper, t= he laboratory chief and section chief, and the investigators.
Rosner:  = ; R= ight.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; But more or less all of the scientists are _____ exper= iment and _____ on an equal basis and...
Rosner:  = ; R= ight. When I was in graduate school, my professor kept a lab coat on = a hook in his office, and when some visitor came, then he put on the lab co= at to take the visitor around and show him the laboratory. But otherw= ise, he never was in the laboratory. He was in his office.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; I myself was in the Molecular Mass Spectroscopic Labor= atory for my master=E2=80=99s thesis, and I came _____ in the morning and o= ptimized _____ and ______. And then the professor just came in to tak= e attendance, who is coming and who is not, and _____ come back again and w= hether they are working hard or not. It=E2=80=99s very under pressure= and probably because of that situation, I wanted to study some humanity th= ings, and that=E2=80=99s why I became interested in the history of bioscien= ce. But, I mean, here, something, somewhat different.
Rosner:  = ; Y= eah, yeah.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; And did you... You came in late 1960s and you=E2= =80=99re still here.
Rosner:  = ; R= ight.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; And did you find any changing atmospheres or changing = morals _____ over the years? Probably the 1960s were different from 1= 990s.
Rosner:  = ; Y= es. A big difference was the fact that, because of the Vietnamese War= , there were lots of M.D.s or graduate students who came to the NIH to be i= n the Public Health Service. And, in fact, after I had been here for = two years and I had received my Ph.D., I became part of the Public Health S= ervice so that I could avoid being sent to Vietnam. But because of th= at, we had a large number of people coming through for two or three years a= t a time who were very smart, very good, hard-working, very interested most= ly, and so there was a constant shuffling through in the labs. And th= ere was no problem about getting postdocs. People wanted to come here= , for sure.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; So the postdoc position was not heavily advertised.
Rosner:  = ; N= o. You didn=E2=80=99t advertise at all. There was no need to ad= vertise.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; I see.
Rosner:  = ; P= eople found this place.
Subsequently, I think then, after that died down, I don=E2=80=99t know w= hether _____ starting, let=E2=80=99s say, in =E2=80=9873, =E2=80=9874, some= thing like that, then I think there was more--people were more intere= sted in staying. So somebody like myself, who had come earlier, now b= egan to think, =E2=80=9CWell, maybe this is a good place to stay. I= =E2=80=99d rather not go on to another university.=E2=80=9D And then = I think in the =E2=80=9880s and the =E2=80=9890s, it became a place which b= ecame very hard for anybody to receive tenure. So now, it=E2=80=99s a= very, very hard road to get tenure. You have to be invited to come, = with the understanding that you=E2=80=99re on the tenure track. So yo= u couldn=E2=80=99t just be some postdoc who shows up for one reason or anot= her, works for a couple of years and says, =E2=80=9COh, I like this place.&= nbsp; I=E2=80=99d like to stay,=E2=80=9D and your boss says, =E2=80=9COkay,= you=E2=80=99re a good guy, you can stay.=E2=80=9D Today, you have to= be invited by basically, with the _____ of the director that you=E2=80=99r= e going to be in a tenure-track position and you=E2=80=99re an important pe= rson, and you have a period of five years or whatever to prove that you=E2= =80=99re worthy of being in tenure. So things have changed a lot in t= hat respect.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; I see. It=E2=80=99s 1980s.
Rosner:  = ; T= hat was late =E2=80=9880s up to now. So, virtually everybody who come= s now as a postdoc is told immediately, =E2=80=9CDon=E2=80=99t think of sta= ying here. You=E2=80=99re not going to stay here, unless you=E2=80=99= re specifically invited.=E2=80=9D
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; How many percentage was invited of that tenure track?<= /p>
Rosner:  = ; I= couldn=E2=80=99t give you percentages. I don=E2=80=99t know those nu= mbers. But very few, just a few of us. And then those peo= ple now are invited, and they=E2=80=99re immediately given some postdocs, t= echnical assistance, more space, so there are people who are invited with t= he eye that they should succeed and stay at the NIH. So when I came, = =E2=80=9CWell, you came, you=E2=80=99re a postdoc.=E2=80=9D Some post= docs like to stay longer. Eventually they became permanent.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; When did you get your tenure?
Rosner:  = ; G= ee, I don=E2=80=99t really remember. I would say it was probably in t= he =E2=80=9870s, early =E2=80=9870s, I would say.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Early =E2=80=9870s.
= &nb= sp; = &nb= sp; = SIDE B
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; ...from my daughter=E2=80=99s friend=E2=80=99s parents= , and she described that her husband got a tenure, =E2=80=9CScott got a ten= ure, Scott got a tenure, Scott got a tenure.=E2=80=9D He _____. = =E2=80=9CScott got a tenure.=E2=80=9D _____ was a computer scientist= . And it took about 10 years.
Rosner:  = ; Y= eah. And I think during my time, it was almost--you almost drifted in= to it. You know, at some point somebody said, =E2=80=9CWell, let=E2= =80=99s put Lee up for,=E2=80=9D you know, let=E2=80=99s make this permanen= t. But, actually--I can=E2=80=99t remember now when that happened.&nb= sp; But now there are very strict rules. You can only stay as a postd= oc a certain number of years. You can get renewed a certain number, a= nd that=E2=80=99s the end of it. Then you have to go. It=E2=80= =99s very, very strict. In those days, well, if you stayed, you said = you want to stay, he=E2=80=99ll take you _____. Okay. It was mu= ch easier, much more relaxed about that. Because there were so many j= obs on the outside that you only stayed here if you really liked the atmosp= here, because you could get maybe better pay, maybe more fringe benefits, l= ess restriction if you were in in a university position. And very few= people in those times went to industry because industry was only... = You either went to a chemical company or you went to a pharmaceutical= company. So there weren=E2=80=99t that many positions. Today, = many of the postdocs are going to biomedical, genetic engineering, that ___= __.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Did you miss teaching?
Rosner:  = ; Y= es, I did. Yes, I did. I think I missed students more than the = teaching, the having people come through, young people who had no bias to t= heir thinking. They thought for the first, from the beginning.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Right.
Rosner:  = ; S= o that I missed a lot. And for many years, I would have summer studen= ts come, high school students, college students, minority students. S= ometimes they would come in January if they would have a January semester.&= nbsp; So I tried to have that kind of contact with students that way.
But that is one of the things that changed a lot, and it=E2=80=99s been = a little bit reversed now because somebody discovered this idea of pre-ERDA= students. So people who=E2=80=99ve just graduated from college come = here now for a year or two years and they work, depending upon the lab, dep= ending upon their abilities and interests and excitement, they can become q= uickly with their own project or they can just be doing technical work.&nbs= p; But, still, it=E2=80=99s a new face, it=E2=80=99s a young person, a pers= on who asks questions and has ideas that are different than the accepted id= eas. So I think that=E2=80=99s an important thing.
And I think that Varmus=E2=80=99s idea of having a graduate school here = was to address that issue, but for other reasons, I disagreed very strongly= with the idea of the graduate school. I did not think it was a good = idea at this time.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; I see.
Rosner:  = ; B= ut I, in fact, was a graduate student when I came here. And there sti= ll are... I don=E2=80=99t know. There=E2=80=99s something like,= I don=E2=80=99t know, 50 or 100 graduate students at the NIH who are worki= ng at somebody=E2=80=99s lab or getting their degree from some local univer= sity or Johns Hopkins, so like that.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; The idea of granting a degree from NIH is actually not= a new idea. It has been around for a while, and I think that was ___= __ that was one of the main _____ that idea.
Rosner:  = ; T= hat=E2=80=99s right, a long time ago, in the =E2=80=9860s.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; In the =E2=80=9860s. Did you see it coming and g= oing ____?
Rosner:  = ; Y= eah. I read that _____ lecture he gave talking about the possibility = of having a university at the NIH, and at that time I was very excited abou= t that idea. I=E2=80=99m not excited about it here today because, fir= st, I think there ought to be universities who do the work, is not a great = need for many, many more Ph.D.s. Ph.D.s have a hard time finding jobs= now.
Secondly, the graduate school is more than just being in somebody=E2=80= =99s lab and having a mentor. It=E2=80=99s being able to go to the en= gineering school and go to a lecture. We don=E2=80=99t have any engin= eering school here. We don=E2=80=99t have any chemistry school here.&= nbsp; We don=E2=80=99t have a mathematics school, we don=E2=80=99t have the= arts or literature, we don=E2=80=99t have science here. So, it=E2=80= =99s not a university. It=E2=80=99s a narrow, it=E2=80=99s a very nar= row, narrow kind of place. And what they were talking about, like bio= informatics, that=E2=80=99s very, very narrow kind of... Maybe it=E2= =80=99s what=E2=80=99s going to happen in the future. I have my doubt= s about it. But, so it=E2=80=99s a very, very narrow kind of thing, s= o it=E2=80=99s not--so it=E2=80=99s going to affect some very few labs.&nbs= p; So they can still have a few graduate students come in.
Why would I want to teach a genetics course to somebody who isn=E2=80=99= t going to come back to me? You know, in the university, people teach= courses and they get students through their courses. So, but if some= body=E2=80=99s going to be _____ or is what they call translational science= , you know, bringing science to the clinic, so I=E2=80=99m going to teach s= omebody bacterial genetics and never see them again because they=E2=80=99re= going to go into something completely different. So, from either...<= /p>
So, I think there are lots of reasons. The most important reason, = I think, is the first one, that this is not a university. This is not= a campus of students, lots of different crosscurrents. That=E2=80=99= s what a graduate student should get. It shouldn=E2=80=99t be _____ l= ocked-up laboratory working on this narrow experiment.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Well, after one or two years in the graduate school, y= ou are just _____.
Rosner:  = ; Y= eah. That=E2=80=99s true.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; One topic and one laboratory and one mentor and not ma= ny projects.
Rosner:  = ; T= hat=E2=80=99s true. So when I came here, so I was already in that sta= te, so I didn=E2=80=99t miss it. But being in a graduate school, bein= g on a campus at a university, you just soak in some different kind of atti= tudes. Maybe some student in your dormitory or married student housin= g or whatever, you know, says to you, what does your work have to do with h= elping people? Or aren=E2=80=99t you creating... You know, you = have opportunities for different ideas, different discussions. Here, = it=E2=80=99s so homogeneous. I think it would be... I=E2=80=99m= a big believer in liberal education, in broad education. We speciali= ze enough.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; History _____. Yeah.
Let=E2=80=99s go back to the science side. Could you describe how = the revolution of molecular biology took place and how it affected the stud= y of bacteria and the other parts of _____ in the 1950s and so on?
Rosner:  = ; S= ure. Well, I guess the major thing that is well known is the physicis= ts that came in and that idea about what is life from Edward _____.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Did you read it?
Rosner:  = ; I= have the book. I=E2=80=99ve seen parts of it. I haven=E2=80=99= t sat down and read the whole thing in a careful way. But he was resp= onsible, I think, for getting physicists interested in biology. And t= he physicists brought a different viewpoint to biology. They believed= you could make an experiment, you could either, it=E2=80=99s either this w= ay, it means that, if it=E2=80=99s that way, it means this, and that you co= uld draw conclusions from your experiments.
Much of the thinking, I must say, when I was in college, even though it = was very well known and very good professors, was a little fuzzy. I w= asn=E2=80=99t quite sure how, what the meaning of any experiment was going = to be. There was always the attitude of, well, life is so complicated= . The biological system is so complicated, you can=E2=80=99t ever rea= lly pin something down. There were just too many variables. And= the physicists said, =E2=80=9CNo. We=E2=80=99re just going to think = of things, it=E2=80=99s simple. It=E2=80=99s either like this or it= =E2=80=99s like that. And we=E2=80=99re going to design experiments a= nd we=E2=80=99re going to answer questions. And then we=E2=80=99re go= ing to walk away with a piece of information.=E2=80=9D And I=E2=80=99= ll tell you...
I made an observation. This business of being able to come to a ha= rd conclusion has really in a sense gone overboard in the sciences. A= nd I showed you Watson=E2=80=99s book, and the chapter titles were declarat= ive sentences. So, conclusions. So, =E2=80=9Cbacterial cells do= not have nuclei.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9CBacteria grow under simple, well-= defined conditions.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9CE. coli is the best _____ growt= h _____.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9CEven small cells are complex.=E2=80=9D&nbs= p; =E2=80=9CCellular proteins can be displayed on _____.=E2=80=9D =E2= =80=9CThe anatomy of E. coli.=E2=80=9D So, most of these are sentence= s, and they are conclusions. If you are high school student or a coll= ege student, phage form plaques, phage also mutate, phage do not grow by gr= adually... Conclusions, conclusions, conclusions, conclusions, conclu= sions! You don=E2=80=99t have to read this stuff. You just writ= e down all these conclusions and you pass the test.
So, this kind of _____ favors the... I call this assertive sentenc= es. Okay? And I notice that, starting in the--let=E2=80=99s see= , I can=E2=80=99t remember when it was; in about 1970, there began to appea= r as the title of the paper, of papers now, assertive sentences. So t= he title of the paper is...
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Very interesting.
Rosner:  = ; = =E2=80=9CAzide-resistant mutants of E. coli alter the _____ protein.=E2=80= =9D Okay? This is a fact; this is a fact. You can=E2=80= =99t argue with this. It says so. So, you can read this...
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Thank you very much.
Rosner:  = ; T= his has, unfortunately, got very, very condensed because of the size limita= tions for Nature. And I have some beautiful graphs. Br= inging you this idea of, you get conclusions from science, and what I disli= ke in the paper is that when you put it in the title, it sounds dogmatic.&n= bsp; Okay? And science is the opposite of dogmatism. Science, y= ou never want to say, =E2=80=9CThis is the way it is.=E2=80=9D Your e= xperiments lead you to a conclusion. Your experiments could have some= problems. How you measure could have some problem. Your interp= retation could have some problems. There could have been some contami= nation. There could have been this. You always tend to... = It=E2=80=99s a difference from religion. Religion, you know exactly.= This is what God said, this is how it is. So we=E2=80=99re bac= k to religion and science.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Right, right. That=E2=80=99s very interesting.&n= bsp; And I think in some way it has to do with Watson=E2=80=99s _____ of do= ing science.
Rosner:  = ; E= xactly, exactly.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Very assertive, and I=E2=80=99m the only one who knows= truth, and a kind of preacher=E2=80=99s _____. It=E2=80=99s similar = to Linus Pauling chemistry. I don=E2=80=99t know whether you=E2=80=99= re familiar with...
Rosner:  = ; N= o, I=E2=80=99m not.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Linus Pauling. He said that this is the= nature of the chemical bond.
Rosner:  = ; R= ight. It=E2=80=99s the nature of the chemical bond. Right.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; And things like that. He knows everything and no= body can challenge him. And in my paper, I deal with that problem.&nb= sp; But in some way, _____ similar things in science. And, as you sai= d, science is more subtle.
Rosner:  = ; R= ight.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Subtle than the conclusion.
Rosner:  = ; R= ight, because, in fact, what you learn from a lifetime in science is that y= ou get some kind of a beautiful image of how things work, but it=E2=80=99s = not true. It=E2=80=99s a nice way of thinking about it, but it=E2=80= =99s just--we have words, we have pictures, we have boxes, we have diagrams= . That=E2=80=99s what=E2=80=99s inside my head when you ask me E. col= i. I think of certain... But that=E2=80=99s not what E. coli is= . That=E2=80=99s something inside of E. coli, and that=E2=80=99s not = how things are happening.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Right.
Rosner:  = ; S= o, I mean, most mature scientists know that, that it=E2=80=99s the latest f= ormulation of the best way we can understand something, but tomorrow it=E2= =80=99s changed.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Right, right. But the history of science shows t= hat.
Rosner:  = ; E= xactly, exactly. Exactly.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Newton=E2=80=99s law does not, cannot be applied to th= e microscopic, atomic world.
Rosner:  = ; R= ight, right, yeah. But it=E2=80=99s very difficult today. There= is so much arrogance because there are so many great discoveries that have= been made, and the techniques are powerful and the instrumentation is powe= rful that people fool themselves into thinking that they have proved someth= ing.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Using the jargon in history of science, we call it is = =E2=80=9Cblack-boxed=E2=80=9D in instruments. We never uncover the __= ___ instrument. We just trust the instrument, and the instrument prod= uce something and _____ follow. But when the instrument was originall= y designed, there might be a lot of discussions and debates over whether it= can be trusted _____. But after _____ done, it=E2=80=99s just a blac= k box. And that is a _____ black box.
Rosner:  = ; W= ell, sure, sure.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; In terms of using, in terms of physicists=E2=80=99 int= erest in biology, molecular biology, this is the Lab of Molecular Biology, = and there may be a physicist like Dr. Davies--he was a former physicist--__= ___ and chemists and biologists. And how did you find communication _= ____? Or did you have any _____ because of the educational background= s?
Rosner:  = ; W= ell, you knew that there were differences, but at that time we all went to = each other=E2=80=99s seminars, and there was a possibility that you could u= nderstand every seminar.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; How could you?
Rosner:  = ; W= ell, I mean, not necessarily, of course. Somebody was talking about, = I mean, if David was talking about something that=E2=80=99s purely x-ray cr= ystallography, I haven=E2=80=99t got the slightest idea what it means by th= is value or that value. Is it big? Is that good? Is it sm= all? Is that good? But you had some basis. You could unde= rstand, you could go to a seminar with some expectation of understanding th= ings.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Learning something.
Rosner:  = ; L= earning something and discussing it and being critical. So the Labora= tory of Molecular Biology had, every Friday, had seminar, and it was a semi= nar, either an outside speaker or given by somebody within the laboratory= p>
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Still today?
Rosner:  = ; N= o, no. It stopped.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; It stopped?
Rosner:  = ; T= hat=E2=80=99s a big change.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; When did it stop?
Rosner:  = ; P= robably about 15 years ago. I=E2=80=99m not a good historian. I= don=E2=80=99t know dates; I don=E2=80=99t remember when things happen.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; The 1980s, something like that?
Rosner:  = ; W= ell, maybe earlier, maybe even earlier. I would say part of it happen= ed when Gordon Tompkins [sp.] left. Gordon Tompkins [sp.] was a bifun= ctional catalyst. He was the kind of person who could grab you. = He would meet you and he would say, =E2=80=9COh, you=E2=80=99re interested= in this. I was just in Chicago and I spoke to somebody, and you shou= ld talk to this person.=E2=80=9D He was a great connector of people a= nd ideas and things. And he understood mathematics and he understood = genetic regulation, and he could go to any seminar and understand what was = going on. And people like Bruce Ames [sp.] and Marty Gellert [sp.], G= ary Felsenfeld [sp.]. Gary Felsenfeld [sp.] was more chemical at that= point, but he=E2=80=99s become more biological. But between the grou= p of people, there was a very broad understanding. So the seminars wo= uld be very lively. There would be arguments and questions and critic= ism.
Today, if I go to a crystallography seminar, the guy shows me a picture = with lots of beautiful colors, that=E2=80=99s it. I have to leave.&nb= sp; I have no real way of thinking, it=E2=80=99s right, it=E2=80=99s wrong.= You have to be a crystallographer to look at the data and look at th= e numbers to... And, similarly, even within your own field, you read = a paper that=E2=80=99s a little bit different from what you=E2=80=99re doin= g, and there may be different techniques, and you=E2=80=99re not confident,= really, to criticize, to critically evaluate everything that comes up.&nbs= p; So because...
And now there is so much powerful ability to find out certain things tha= t, you know, everything is with a kit, everything is with a protocol book, = so everybody=E2=80=99s, anybody can take any gene and can clone it and can = sequence it and put it into this organism, into that organism. You co= uld be a high school student and do it. You don=E2=80=99t even have t= o understand what you=E2=80=99re doing and you can do it. So anybody = can do miracles today. And behind that is, then, a tremendous power t= o do things and to understand things that you can develop a whole area wher= e somebody else has no idea what you=E2=80=99re doing. I mean, the nu= mber of factors that are out there now, how many transcription factors are = there, how many cytokines are there, how many different proteins that peopl= e work on, different organisms, that there=E2=80=99s such a huge amount of = information...
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Right, right.
Rosner:  = ; .= ..that it=E2=80=99s hard for any one person to be competent in all of these= different areas. It=E2=80=99s hard to follow, let=E2=80=99s say, tra= nscription in E. coli, let alone transcription in other bacteria, let alone= transcription in yeast, transcription in mammalian cells. Each has h= uge complexities around it. It=E2=80=99s very hard to follow. S= o we=E2=80=99re now very segregated. So Dr. Felsenfeld...
So we don=E2=80=99t have any lab meetings anymore. We used to have= , every Friday was seminar, every Tuesday was journal club, and journal clu= b was, somebody would discuss something in journals, or occasionally they m= ight present some of their own work maybe. But if I give a journal cl= ub on bacteria, the crystallographers aren=E2=80=99t going to come, the euk= aryotic people aren=E2=80=99t going to come, the chemists aren=E2=80=99t go= ing to come. So we have all become much more specialized.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; I see. When do you think was the critical point,= the period or year or event... You said that Dr. Gordon Tompkins [sp= .]...
Rosner:  = ; Y= eah. After Tompkins [sp.] left, it started to fall down, I think, esp= ecially after Tompkins [sp.] and Bruce Ames [sp.] left.
Now, I was very lucky in that we had, from the very early time I was her= e, from =E2=80=9866 or =E2=80=9867, we had something called the lambda lunc= h. It was the first one of these--what do they call them now--interes= t groups. And, in fact, Varmus was part of that, just for a short per= iod, and Mike Fisher [sp.] used to come to that. And it was a group f= or people, let=E2=80=99s talk about bacteria, and we=E2=80=99re also intere= sted in the bacteria phage lambda. That started in 1966. I went= to one. It hasn=E2=80=99t stopped for 33 years. We get togethe= r every Thursday. We either have an outside speaker or, much more usu= ally, it=E2=80=99s one of ourselves. You know, sometimes in the summe= r, it gets quiet over the holidays. It gets quiet and we don=E2=80=99= t have it. But, otherwise, we have every week=E2=80=99s lambda lunch.=
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; It=E2=80=99s called lab lunch?
Rosner:  = ; L= ambda.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Lambda.
Rosner:  = ; F= or the bacteria phage lambda.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; I see, lambda lunch.
Rosner:  = ; A= nd it used to be in Building 2, and then it moved to Building 35, the Menta= l Health Building. We have a room there that we use. And this g= roup of people are from all the different institutes.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; I see.
Rosner:  = ; M= ental Health; Cancer; Blood, Heart, Lung, Blood; Child Development; differe= nt institutes.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; This has to do with _____ collaborating across institu= tions...
Rosner:  = ; R= ight.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; ...at NIH. It=E2=80=99s not just the lab here.= p>
Rosner:  = ; R= ight.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; It=E2=80=99s not bacteriologists here.
Rosner:  = ; R= ight.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; This is a group of people out there that=E2=80=99s ___= __ the NIH boundary. And did you do that kind of collaboration or exc= hange of information or cross-fertilization starting in the 1960s?
Rosner:  = ; Y= eah.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; And it=E2=80=99s going on...
Rosner:  = ; I= t goes on strong, strong, strong.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; And, let=E2=80=99s say, within the interest group or l= ambda lunch, you maybe exchange some ideas. =E2=80=9CWhy don=E2=80=99= t we collaborate on this project?=E2=80=9D And that happens?
Rosner:  = ; O= h, yes.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Very often?
Rosner:  = ; O= h, yes. Yesterday=E2=80=99s seminar, as I was leaving, somebody was s= aying to somebody else, =E2=80=9CWhy don=E2=80=99t we work on this?=E2=80= =9D And I came to the seminar, I received some strains from somebody = in the Cancer Institute. We exchange strains very freely, information= very freely, telephone, e-mail, and this once-a-week lambda meeting. =
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; So, that interest group is really a medium to go throu= gh institutions.
Rosner:  = ; R= ight.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; That=E2=80=99s very interesting. What is the nam= e of the interest group?
Rosner:  = ; L= ambda lunch.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; It=E2=80=99s lambda lunch.
Rosner:  = ; T= hat=E2=80=99s what it=E2=80=99s called.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Not the bacterial...
Rosner:  = ; M= aybe it=E2=80=99s called bacteria phage lambda interest group, but I don=E2= =80=99t think so. Probably I could find it for you on the Web. = But that=E2=80=99s what it--it was called lambda lunch because we used to h= ave lunch. It was at noon and we used to have lunch. Now we don= =E2=80=99t have lunch anymore. It=E2=80=99s at 11:00.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Lambda before lunch.
Rosner:  = ; W= ell, maybe I=E2=80=99ll have to find it. I won=E2=80=99t waste time.<= /p>
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Have you ever collaborated with Dr. Davies?
Rosner:  = ; Y= eah, yeah. So, we just collaborated two years ago. A paper came= out in 1998, where a protein that we were interested in. We talked t= o him and explained why it=E2=80=99s an important protein and why it=E2=80= =99s interesting to us, and he assigned one of his postdocs, a Korean...
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Sakiri [sp.]?
Rosner:  = ; S= akiri [sp.], yes. And he solved the structure.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Oh, good.
Rosner:  = ; T= hat was very important for them. It was more important for us than fo= r them, but it was an important structure for the whole class of structures= , of proteins that hadn=E2=80=99t been solved, so that=E2=80=99s very satis= fying.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Could you comment on the kind of style, of scientific = style or managerial style of Dr. Davies or Dr. Gary Felsenfeld _____, if yo= u can. _____.
Rosner:  = ; W= ell, I think that, I mean, I don=E2=80=99t really know so well, to tell you= the truth, how they actually worked within their groups. I=E2=80=99v= e had two collaborations with people who were part of Marty Gellert=E2=80= =99s [sp.] group over the years, and one of them was Dr. Michael Gottesman = [sp.], who is now the deputy director of the NIH. He and I worked tog= ether on a project of transposition. And the other one was Mark Geier= [sp.], who is now, I think, a third of the Human Genome Project. But= they were both people who worked in Marty Gellert=E2=80=99s [sp.] lab, and= I had some interest. I had some observations and I went and talked t= o him about it, and he and Marty had no problem in allowing this kind of in= teraction to occur.
So, I would say, certainly in those days, if somebody had an interest, i= f a postdoc had an interest in working with another postdoc, I don=E2=80=99= t think anybody was going to say to them, =E2=80=9CYou can=E2=80=99t do thi= s.=E2=80=9D I would say today that, with Dr. Davies, it=E2=80=99s pro= bably a little more strict because he has a certain number of people, there= are lots of proteins that need to be solved, so he has to decide what=E2= =80=99s worth doing. And so he is more at a point where he has to mak= e a decision, do we try to solve that structure or don=E2=80=99t we? = If we solve it, is it important? If we try to solve it, is it too har= d? Can this person afford to spend one year, two years, working on th= at problem? So he has to make that kind of decision.
From my point of view, it seems like in a certain way it=E2=80=99s a lit= tle bit more straightforward, that it takes time to figure out how to make = enough protein, it takes time to figure out how to get the condition to cry= stallize it. Once you have the crystals, then solving the structure i= s not such a complicated thing. Whereas the kind of experiments that = we do are much more every day it=E2=80=99s changing. You get some res= ult, you go in this direction, you go in that direction, so every day there= are decisions that have to be made about where the project is going. = So it=E2=80=99s a little bit of a more fluid, more physiological, whereas = his is much more structure _____.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; More biological.
Rosner:  = ; R= ight, right.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; _____ simply put _____.
Rosner:  = ; R= ight. Now, I don=E2=80=99t know how Gary Felsenfeld works with his po= stdocs. I don=E2=80=99t know what happens when they come. Does = he give them a project to work on, or do they come and suggest something, o= r do they have a discussion? Maybe all of those ways. I don=E2= =80=99t have any direct experience with how that works.
Back when Normalinski [sp.] was my boss, what he would do with a new pos= tdoc is he would come and he=E2=80=99d talk to them about the laboratory, w= hat we=E2=80=99re doing, and then send them to the library for two weeks an= d have them come back with an idea, so very unstructured. Okay, we no= w have done this. Now, the next step is to do this, and you=E2=80=99r= e the next person, so you=E2=80=99re going to work on this--much more fluid= .
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; I see.
Rosner:  = ; S= o, but I don=E2=80=99t really know. I=E2=80=99m not in those laborato= ries, so I don=E2=80=99t... It=E2=80=99s not that I=E2=80=99m shy to = tell you. It=E2=80=99s that I really don=E2=80=99t know.
But then the... I think a big change that also occurred during thi= s period is that, towards the end of the =E2=80=9860s, as the work with the= _____ to be very powerful, then you slowly began to see the beginnings--no= t right away; I would say more in the =E2=80=9870s, maybe even the =E2=80= =9880s--when companies started coming around the laboratory to find out som= e way they could do something to make your life simpler.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Uh-huh. What do you mean by simpler?
Rosner:  = ; A= kit or a tube that, this sample goes here and that sample goes there, or h= ere is the bottle, you know. You don=E2=80=99t have to--you just buy = all of the bottles. You take one microliter here, one microliter here= , one microliter here, put together this tube, spin it three minutes, pour = it over a column, you don=E2=80=99t know what the column is, out comes some= thing magic.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Right.
Rosner:  = ; S= o, kits. And specialty equipment, making equipment specifically for t= he needs of the scientist.
Back in the earlier days, you went and you looked and saw what was there= , and you made use of what was there.
I remember when I first--the first summer after graduate school, I went = to work with a very prominent bacterial geneticist by the name of Demeretz = [sp.], and he, in order to agitate the tubes, they had a motor--this was at= Brookhaven, so they just had a motor from the shop, and with a shaft and a= n eccentrically placed rubber stopper, and you turned on the motor and it h= ad a rheostat so you could change the speed, and you=E2=80=99d put your tub= e next to that rotor, and as it went, it mixed it.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Right.
Rosner:  = ; T= he _____ vortex gene, you know, the vortex, so it=E2=80=99s made for you.&n= bsp; There was a time when it wasn=E2=80=99t made for you. If you did= n=E2=80=99t have your own... And in the... Michael Yarmolitsky = [sp.] told me that at Pasteur Institute, they would take the tube and they = would--that=E2=80=99s how they mixed it up.
So there=E2=80=99s been a change where industry has adapted to the fact = that science itself is an industry, and there are people who want things ma= de for them. So you could open any issue of Science magazine= ...
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Is there any attempt on the side of industry to commer= cialize the techniques or knowledge out of NIH today? Did they.;..&nb= sp; You know, in the universities, there are some fellowships, industrial f= ellowships or grants.
Rosner:  = ; R= ight.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Funds available.
Rosne: = &nb= sp; Very little at the NIH because everybody here is government, unless you= have a fellowship... Let=E2=80=99s say a postdoc could have a fellow= ship from the Cancer Society or from Helen Hayes--not Helen Hayes... = Some things... But those were philanthropic organizations.
The tobacco industry always was around in the academic world, giving fun= ds, but not here.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Uh-huh, I see.
Going back to the size of the funds, who decides the size of the budget?= For example, _____?
Rosner:  = ; T= he budget is decided by Congress.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; By the Congress.
Rosner:  = ; B= y Congress. So Congress decides the budget for the institute, and I g= uess they decide the budget for how much will the extramural go into grants= and how much is intramural going to the scientists at the NIH. And t= hen, within that, it=E2=80=99s the director, I guess.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; But it seems like, still, I know that that _____ from = up to down, but it seems like there should be kind of a justification of th= e size of a budget from the Laboratory of Molecular Biology. We want = to expand in some way, and _____ the more people and, you know, everybody c= an argue, and in some way they make... They do not have to write a gr= ant proposal, but in some way they may argue that we need this money or...<= /p>
Rosner:  = ; Y= eah. For that information, you have to go to Gary Felsenfeld.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; I see.
Rosner:  = ; I= don=E2=80=99t have any information. It=E2=80=99s my impression that = once there has been a budget for the laboratory, then it=E2=80=99s a negoti= ation with the director about, we want some more people, I need some more s= lots, or we need some more room. Can you find some more room? W= e want to hire somebody. But that=E2=80=99s a piecemeal kind of, you = know, a little addition here, a little addition there, that gets worked out= with the director. The purchasing of large equipment goes through th= e director=E2=80=99s fund. It doesn=E2=80=99t come out of the laborat= ory budget.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; That=E2=80=99s very interesting. I had the same = feeling when I interviewed Dr. Davies, and he=E2=80=99s kind of _____ from = administration.
Rosner:  = ; T= hat=E2=80=99s right.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Especially nowadays. It=E2=80=99s just a matter = of administrator or director, and I=E2=80=99m just doing my own _____.
I met Dr. Levine [sp.] downstairs, and he=E2=80=99s the computer directo= r of the scientific director. And he=E2=80=99s dealing with those ___= __.
Rosner:  = ; T= hat=E2=80=99s right.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; And he says that, well, we are kind of screening scien= tists from getting involved _____ problems.
Rosner:  = ; R= ight. And it=E2=80=99s very true. That=E2=80=99s why I was sayi= ng that this is a more academic environment than the Academy=E2=80=99s, bec= ause we don=E2=80=99t have that as the constant concern. Now, maybe i= n June, Dr. Felsenfeld will send out a notice saying that we=E2=80=99re run= ning a little bit ahead of our budget, and so can we tighten up a little bi= t. Or if we go at this rate, we=E2=80=99ll be out of money two months= early. Okay?
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; I see.
Rosner:  = ; S= o, you know, so he=E2=80=99ll give some suggestion to be a little more care= ful with spending.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; That=E2=80=99s democratic.
Rosner:  = ; V= ery democratic. And it=E2=80=99s just voluntary.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Voluntary, yeah.
Rosner:  = ; B= ut, of course, it means that if in June I decide I need a new instrument th= at will cost $30,000, then that=E2=80=99s a bad time to ask for it. B= ut it may go to--it=E2=80=99ll go through the director=E2=80=99s office.&nb= sp; But let=E2=80=99s say all of a sudden I=E2=80=99m doing some project an= d I need to buy a lot of tissue culture media or I have to buy a lot of rad= ioactivity or something like that. But I have never known anybody to = stop an experiment because of budget.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Before closing, we have a little bit of time. Th= is is a one-and-a-half-hour tape, and I=E2=80=99m probably 10 minutes or so= .
Rosner:  = ; O= kay.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; How would you summarize your life at NIH as a scientis= t generally, not only just doing science, but as a...
Rosner:  = ; A= s a person?
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; As a person and, you know.
Rosner:  = ; I= would say that, for the most part, it=E2=80=99s been a great privilege and= a pleasure to not only be able to do my own experiments, but to be around = really great scientists, and for the great, great majority of them, people = who are willing to give time and materials.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; _____.
Rosner:  = ; Y= es, yes. To talk, to give advice, to give criticism, to share materia= ls, to give ideas.
In looking back, I would say that I probably made some bad decisions per= sonally about working by myself, and that I realize that working by myself,= which happened accidentally but which then came to be a certain number of = years, was bad, because working by yourself is very lonely and is not an ef= ficient way to work, because if you want to go to a seminar to hear what so= mebody is saying, the experiment stops. You go to the library, the ex= periment stops. So that=E2=80=99s bad. Whereas if you have two = people, one guy goes and comes back and tells you what happened, the other = guy watches your experiment and does this or that when it=E2=80=99s needed.=
So it=E2=80=99s been a really great pleasure to, since working with Bob = Martin [sp.] over 10 or 12 years, where he is an incredibly hard-working an= d productive and thoughtful scientist, and we get along, fortunately, very = well, so together we=E2=80=99ve made a very good team, I think.
I have missed some of the lack of teaching and the lack of relationship = with young students, some of which I=E2=80=99ve gotten back by the summer s= tudents.
Park: &= nbsp; &nbs= p; Have you ever taught at the AES?
Rosner:  = ; I= did very briefly a long time ago. Yes, I did. And I=E2=80=99m = also involved now with the pre-ERDA students, pre-ERDA workers--they=E2=80= =99re not students anymore--in our institute, so I was appointed to be kind= of an ombudsman, to make myself known to the pre-ERDA students, to be a li= ttle bit involved in their activities, to help them to get oriented at the = beginning, to resolve any conflicts that may come up. So, in that way= , I have a little bit of a connection with younger people.
And, intellectually, it=E2=80=99s also a wonderful place to have discuss= ions. If you go to the Library of Congress chamber music series, you = see NIH scientists. If you to go the Emerson Quartet, you see NIH sci= entists. I...
= &nb= sp; = &nb= sp; = # # #