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This is the second interview in an oral history with Dr. Peter Piot, Executive Director of the joint United Nations Program on HIV/AIDS (UNAIDS), and Under Secretary-General of the United Nations, on April 8, 2009 at the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation in Washington D.C. The interviewer is Victoria A. Harden.
Harden: Dr. Piot, when we stopped at the end of our first interview, you had traced your involvement with AIDS through 1992, when you joined the World Health Organization’s Global Programme on AIDS (GPA). Looking back at the WHO response between 1981 and 1992, I am struck by how slow WHO was to get involved, to appreciate the impact of AIDS. WHO’s Director General [Halfdan T. Mahler] admitted this. Would you comment in a general way on WHO’s involvement during the first ten years of AIDS from 1981 to 1992?
Piot: Where to start? I think in general, like most huge institutions, the WHO is slow to take on new issues, because it has a complicated planning process, budgetary process, and governance process. In terms of specifics, it is indeed in the mid ‘80s, 1986 I think, when Jonathan Mann moved to Geneva and created what was initially called a Special Programme on AIDS, which would become the Global Programme on AIDS. That was like five years after the first cases of AIDS were described, and WHO Director General Mahler thought that this was an issue only for high income countries, for the U.S., North America, and Europe, and he said “That’s not our business.” And let’s not forget that in these days we were counting the AIDS numbers by a few thousand, which is something people tend to forget today. It is not always obvious whether something is going to become a big epidemic or not, and some people--the catastrophic types--have a tendency to believe that if you have two cases, it’s going to wipe out the world. Other people play it down. Of course, in the case of AIDS, it has become much bigger than any of us could imagine.
Harden: In 1992, after Jonathan Mann resigned, there was a report that suggesting that some new entity needed to be created to address AIDS. I'm trying to get a handle on some of the definitions that you all used and how the UNAIDS project emerged. As you tell me about it, would you please define terms like “civil society” and tell me what we need to know about your Program Coordinating Board (PCB), and about how you raised the necessary money.
Piot: First of all, when Jonathan Mann left, Michael Merson took over the Special Programme on AIDS. He was a UN functionary – I mean, a WHO one--specialized in diarrheal disease. And I think that he did a good job. I mean, he's not always appreciated, particularly in the AIDS world, because Jonathan Mann was elevated to some kind of sainthood. But Mike Merson brought some order, some sound management into the program. I worked with him for two years and learned a lot from him. But he came at a time when some people were already looking beyond WHO. First maybe I will give you some definitions and then go into your question on how UNAIDS came about. “Donors” are defined as the governments of high-income countries.
Harden: Only governments, not private?
Piot: Only governments, not private. There have been private donors, but it's marginal. The main donors of UNAIDS are the Netherlands--the number one donor--then the US, Sweden, Norway, and the UK. These are the top donors. And then we have the equivalent of either the USAID [United States Agency for International Development] or in the UK the Department for International Development or Ministry of Foreign Affairs. And eight donors sit on the program coordination board. They are elected in the Economic and Social Council of the United Nations, in their respective regional groupings. Because these are high-income countries, they have a grouping name. It's called the Western and Other Group, “other” to designate Australia and New Zealand, because they're Western countries but they're not in the West. Japan's in that group, also.
Harden: Which brings me to the question that as the UN looking for a leader for what became UNAIDS, it was tough. Someone said you were selected because you had fewer enemies than anybody else.
Piot:Yes, that's true.
Harden: But my question is that if you were never particularly interested in being a bureaucrat, why did you let your name be put into nomination, and what did you think you could do, in terms of dealing with this massive bureaucracy, which, in the past you didn't want to be a part of?
Piot:To be honest, I didn't really think it through very hard, because if you think too much about these sorts of things, I don't think you'll ever do it. It's like jumping in the water and swimming. I became interested in it for a positive reason and a negative reason. I started with the negative reason. When I saw the candidates for that job, with the exception of Helene Gale, now director of Care International, who was a friend of mine, I realized that they were all UN bureaucrats. And if any of these people lead this new effort, it will be dead in the water at the beginning. I was always hoping that somebody would come up who would be a candidate, who had international experience, who was more senior than me, and who would know AIDS in the developing world. But that didn't happen. So I became more and more determined to be a candidate. And then there is also the positive reason. I had a year and a half experience in WHO during which I had learned how the system functions. I had also worked on AIDS and had a good knowledge of several African countries, how they function. They were the most severely hit. I saw an opportunity to translate into practice ideas I'd been developing. For example, on the one hand, AIDS work should have a strong scientific base. But on the other hand, we also needed to involve the people. I got really irritated when I was in WHO when they would call in a few experts sitting in a room in Geneva, usually a room without windows like this one, and define policy for the rest of the world and try to shovel it down people's throats. And then they would be surprised that the policy didn't work. So I believed that we need to involve the people. And that's my interest in bringing in these civil society groups.
Harden: Let’s step aside here, and say that this is a very depressing picture of the UN as a whole. Is it the only way that we can do things in this world? Is there any way to make things happen better?
Piot: Yes, in general I’m pretty optimistic, but I think that is one dynamic that afflicts bureaucracies. I think it's actually unethical, because the net result is that we spend energy on something negative, on turf, fighting each other, instead of something positive, helping people, doing better research, doing better programs, joining forces. And I was never able to accept that. I think maybe it's very naïve, what I'm saying, but I try to do something about that. In terms of the UN system, what is needed is an absolutely radical cultural revolution, but is is not going to happen. But it is much better now than it used to be.
Harden: Let’s talk about the major debates about what this new program on AIDS was going to be. Was the secretariat going to be strong or weak? Was it going to be an organization that provided funds or not? And to whom would you report? To whom were you accountable, the member countries, or the UN agencies? I think this must have been your first big fight.
Piot: Yes. They were debates in the corridor, but there was never a conclusion, because initially there was no leader to – to say, well, this is what I stand for. I fought for two things. During the session in which I was appointed by the Committee of Co-Sponsoring Organizations, where the various heads of the then six agencies involved met, they started discussing limits on UNAIDS literally ten minutes after having selected me and before I was presented to Secretary General Boutros-Ghali, who officially appointed me. I fought them for two things, and I was ready to resign if they refused. One was, who has the right to hire and fire, and two, who was my boss? I wanted an answer to these two questions. I wanted the right to hire and fire. I didn’t want to have to go ask Nakajima and the other guys to recruit staff, because what they wanted to do was to impose staff on me, and it's extremely rare in the world that then you would get their best people, and ones that would help you. The second question was, who's my boss? It was not a trivial question, and it's about governance. The proposal from within the UN was that I would report to the agency heads in the UN. And I said that for me is unacceptable. The reason is not so much my ego but for two practical reasons. One, that would have de facto reduced me to one of their staff, and I would not have the liberty to work. Secondly, a fundamental philosophical position for the United Nations is that the UN systems should be accountable to the countries, to the people of the world through their countries, and not to themselves. Because of this, there was no accountability, and I thought that was unacceptable. That had to go.
Harden: But that would also relate to who your boss was, would it not?
Piot: Indeed, yes. It was related to that, who was my boss. But also, I thought, we need – and this was the metaphor I used in the beginning, the early days--to play judo. And by that I meant that on the one hand, we need to use the weight of the opponent, in this case the weight of big organizations, to push them into the direction that would get them to do more on AIDS. That was my idea.
Harden: After you weathered this first storm of getting everything organized, you withdrew for a weekend retreat to Bellagio. I was quite interested in seeing the picture in the first 10 years history of UNAIDS and want to find out why you selected the people to come and – for example, why Jim Curran from the US and nobody else? And then the name – you came up with UNAIDS while you were there. Why this, and apparently your daughter designed the logo. Tell me about this retreat.
Piot: My daughter would have been 15 or so at that time. I needed a sounding board, because very early I saw that this was going to be a lonely job. I couldn't go to many people in the system, particularly not the ones who said “I'm going to help you,” which basically meant “I'll stab you in the back at the first opportunity.” I actually invited a group of friends to a non-meeting. There are no records of that meeting, which I now regret, I must say. And I can't find my notes. The attendees were friends who were available to come on that short notice to Bellagio. Dr. Seth Berkley, who was then working for the Rockefeller Foundation, made their center at Bellagio available for free and paid for the meeting because I didn’t have a budget. Jim Curran was somebody I had been working with in Projet Sida in Kinshasa, Zaire, with Jonathan Mann. I have the greatest respect for him. And he was willing to come to Bellagio in a personal capacity, because she was still at CDC and it was not an official meeting. The retreat was extremely useful, because we had an open discussion, which you can rarely have in the system itself because everything then acquires a meaning, and people think you have an agenda. It's the same in any political and bureaucratic system.
Piot: She works at MTV. She has some artistic tendencies, but she said, now that it will be called UNAIDS, the AIDS symbol is the red ribbon, and you already have the UN logo, so UNAIDS’ logo should be a combination of them.
Harden: But the red ribbon in the UNAIDS logo is wound within the UN logo, rather than sitting on top of it. I think that's very interesting.
Piot: Yes, it is indeed. And because the idea came from my daughter, it saved us some $10,000 that it would have cost to get the logo from a design firm, and UNAIDS didn’t have theses dollars. Afterwards, at a meeting of the Committee of Co-Sponsoring Organizations, I was under attack because we had chosen a name and a logo. I said, “You can't have an organization if you don't have a name.” But this illustrates that every single thing required a fight. Everything. And I had no money then.
Harden: I've been trying to figure out how you plan and implement programs when you don't know how much is coming, and where it's coming from, and when it's coming. How did your funding develop? I know you had to fight for the initial budget.
Piot: In the early days, particularly, the money came from the Clinton Administration in the US. Now in UNAIDS there is a savings account that serves as buffer for late payment by donors. Most donors pay at the end of their fiscal year, so generally, there's hardly any income at the beginning of the year. If you don't have that kind of reserve, you have to close the doors.
Harden: The US budget process often operates the same way.
Piot: Yes, but the US government can borrow money. UNAIDS can't borrow money. I accumulated that reserve money through conservative fiscal policies, trying to be a bit thrifty, and good management. But it was often guesswork.
Harden: In March 1995 you set up a preparatory team of 10-12 people to work out a detailed strategy. One participant described this as a very non-hierarchical structure, and somebody else called it anarchical. I would like for you to describe your vision: what you wanted out of this, what sort of strategic plan emerged, and, finally, whether you found that size group to be the right-sized group to help you plan.
Piot: For a few months, I was literally the only employee UNAIDS, and I was supposed to create a new organization, with no money in one year. Then I got some money from the US, from France, from Sweden, from UK, some starter money, or seed money, so I could hire people. WHO, the Global Program on AIDS, also gave me money. Mike Merson had left and Stefano Bertozzi, who was then the acting director of the Global Program. He and I were very close friends, which Nakajima and other people didn't know, fortunately, because otherwise Stafano wouldn't have been put there. We worked together, and he provided some of the initial administrative support.
Harden: Tell me who these 10-12 people were in terms of their backgrounds and training.
Piot: It was a combination. The person who served as my chief of staff was Purnima Mane, who is now the Deputy Executive Director of the UNFPA, the UN Funding Planning Organization. She is a social worker by background, with a PhD in social work from the Tata Institute in Bombay. She is also a great singer. I mean she was a professional singer. She did the Indian version of “Jesus Christ, Superstar.” So I mean, we have really talented people. Who else was with me? Elizabeth Manipoud. She's French, and she came from UNICEF, and had a legal background. She was a lawyer, so that was very useful. We had people who came from WHO, Nina Ferencic, a communicator, who came from the Annenberg School in Pittsburgh. I didn't go for technical people, because that was not my problem. Plus, I knew that I didn't know how to organize something. Rob Moodie, was also there, a public health physician from Melbourne with Africa experience. These were people who were totally dedicated to the AIDS cause, but were not AIDS scientists. Scientists would have been pretty useless.
Harden: Tell me about your strategic plan. How far down the road were you looking, here at the beginning? Certainly one would like to see everybody who is ill be treated, a vaccine developed so that it would end the threat, and discrimination be ended and what have you. But those are such big goals that they would have been impossible to measure at the outset.
Piot: Yes, on the one hand we had big goals, but for example, no treatment was available.
Harden: In the initial strategy.
Piot: In '95, there was no proven effective treatment. And that came only exactly a year later, in July '96 in Vancouver, at the international AIDS conference. Then we added that, and I even spoke in the opening ceremony in Vancouver, and I said, “This is great news. But I am really concerned that the majority of people who need this therapy live in poor countries. Will they have access?” And it took eight, nine years before that materialized.
Harden: When you presented your budget to the PCB, it countered with about a third of what you thought you needed. Eventually you got the money increased, and you were ready to launch then on World AIDS Day 1995, December 1st, but the launch turned out to be a bust. Would you tell me about this?
Piot: First, the debate on money in the PCB was where we had a major conflict. On the one hand you had the donor countries, who wanted to pay as little as possible. I mean, I understand all that. I think the proposed budget was $40 million for two years. Can you imagine that they believed that amount would defeat the AIDS epidemic? It didn't pass the laugh test. I was really angry.
Harden: NIH security is a pain.
Piot: I know, and as a foreigner, I know I need my passport. Before—in my previous life, when I was getting NIH money--I went jogging at NIH, on the campus. But no longer.
Harden: Before 9/11. Everything changed after the attacks. And then NIH got the fence.
Piot: When we started UNAIDS, it was before 9/11 at the UN, but still security was tight. We also hadn't prepared the field. We should have systematically gone and visited ambassadors and this and that. So anyway, we learned a lesson. We learned a lot of the things the hard way. It was like a child growing up.
Harden: You did become operational the first of January, 1996. You had a staff of 91 in Geneva and 10 in other countries around the world. It appeared to me that your first real task was to get people's attention, to understand that AIDS really was a problem. Tell me more about how you started at UNAIDS.
Piot: I set three goals for myself when I got into the job. The first one was to put AIDS on the political agendas in the world. I had come to the conclusion without that we would never get the money necessary. Secondly I wanted to build a large coalition. I wanted UNAIDS to get out of the ghetto of AIDS doctors and AIDS activists, who sometimes fought with each other, sometimes worked together. Finally, I wanted to mobilize the money, not so much for UNAIDS, but for developing countries. Those were my personal goals. But, indeed, the first one was to get attention for the issue.
Harden:Yes, I'm very interested in this.
Piot:The original estimates from Jonathan Mann’s time were often called Delphi surveys. Jim Chin did that. He would interview a few people and ask, “What do you think is the number of cases are in Asia, Africa, and so on?” I participated in that when I was a professor of microbiology in Antwerp and chair of WHO’s Committee on HIV Epidemiology. That method’s fine when there's a total unknown, when you need a Delphi method, like the oracle. But what we needed now was more a systematic analysis of the data that started being published. Many data points collected in a systematic way.
Harden: Did the World Health Organization collect any kind of infectious disease data systematically at this time?
Piot: WHO data was mostly based on the reporting by ministries of health of their member states. And some didn't want to recognize that they had an AIDS problem, so it became a political issue. Two, the quality was really poor. There was no quality assurance. And three, the data were often very old. They would report data from four years ago, and in an epidemic, by definition, cases go up. You need real-time data if possible. Mike Merson had started to improve that system. So it's thanks to that initial investment that we could do our work. But we never saw the fruit of this work, because these things take time to set up. What was then was launched was called sentinel surveillance. It was a systematic approach. Pregnant women who came to antenatal clinics had blood drawn and tested for HIV. They were thought to provide a representative sample of the population. In the developing countries, most women get pregnant, so by definition they're sexually active. That's still probably the most practical approach, although it is not 100% accurate, as we know today. We didn't know that in these days. It's accurate enough for us to follow trends, which is important. Is infection going up, is it going down, is it remaining the same?
Harden: Right, but even there, the CDC estimates were limited to the US.
Piot:Yes, to the US. And not every country has a CDC. Some have them, but they are not of the high quality as in the US. And so that is where UNAIDS invested a lot of our energy in the beginning, learning about the size of the problem.
Harden: How did this end up with the US Census Bureau tallying this information, instead of the World Health Organization?
Piot:The US Census Bureau was a very important player because they had a systematic database of anything that was published on HIV prevalence surveys. It was Peter Way and Karen Stenucki who were doing this. They would take pictures, they would go to every conference on AIDS you can think of, and collect all the information.
Harden: And they were working for the Census Bureau, the US
Piot:Yes, for the US Census Bureau.
Harden: And how... This just doesn't register with me, why they were going – why the US Census Bureau was doing this around the world, when it, like the CDC, is an agency of the US government. You'd think there would be – it would be limited to the US. This is why I was surprised about this. And were they using World Health Organization statistics?
Piot:Yes, but WHO was grossly underreporting. They were using official government statistics, and nearly always that meant AIDS cases, not the number of people with HIV. Big difference. The US Census deals with population issues in the world, I think as part of its mandate, because that's a strategic issue for the US. So we worked with them. WHO would not work with them, but I said, we work with the people who have the information. We are agnostic about why they gather it. That collaboration resulted in the first estimates on HIV infection in the world. I can't remember when we published it, but that's in the chronicle. And that was the work of Bernhard Schwartlander and his colleagues. They worked really hard, and in some cases these estimates retrospectively turned out to be very accurate, while others were exaggerated. Particularly for Asia, we had overestimated. For example, in India, the estimates were based on nearly exclusively urban figures. We had hardly any figures from rural populations. And it turned out 10 years later that rural populations had a far lower incidence and prevalence.
Harden: In 1996, at the 11th International AIDS Conference in Vancouver, the epidemic reached a turning point with the introduction of the protease inhibitors, and HAART (Highly Active Anti-Retroviral Therapy]. Do you see this date as a turning point because something could now actually be done to keep people alive who were infected with HIV? Has funding and activity increased because once AIDS could be treated, political entities were more willing to admit that it was a problem in their countries?
Harden: And one other philosophical issue, if I may just go on here. With respect to questions about whether HIV caused AIDS, I have become very interested in what convinces people that the cause of a disease has been found. For scientists, there is Koch’s Postulates. In 1882, when the famous version of Koch's postulates were published about the cause of tuberculosis, it may have convinced the scientific world that a single germ caused this disease, but it was not until 1894 when diphtheria antitoxin was introduced, that the lay public was persuaded about the correctness of the germ theory. When physicians could actually intervene to stop a disease, when a child who was dying was suddenly getting well instead, the lay public began to trust this new medicine. I wonder if the introduction of HAART had the same effect. Although scientists had been convinced by data in 1984 that the cause of AIDS had been found, AIDS denialists gathered support until the introduction of HAART and seemed to lose steam after 1996.
Piot: I fully, fully agree. We call it the Lazarus effect: people essentially stand up out of the grave.
Harden:Did you see a decline in the opposition to belief that HIV caused AIDS?
Piot: Not immediately, no.
Harden: It took a while.
Piot: It took a while, and for example, in 2001, when we had the UN Special Session– the General Assembly Session on AIDS-- when you read the Declaration of Commitment, which is the document that came out of it, a kind of a road map for the whole world to deal with AIDS, one thing is not in it. I think that session was a tipping point in the international response to AIDS. Forty-five presidents and prime ministers unanimously endorsed this road map. But there is one thing that is not in there, and it's treatment. There are targets for knowledge by young people about AIDS, and targets for reducing new infections and mother-to-child transmission. All that is in there, but agreement could not be reached on access to treatment. And all the donor countries, including the US and except for France and Luxemburg, were against any mention about access to treatment. Latin American and Caribbean countries lobbied hard to have a treatment access target, but failed. The African governments were against it, even though their people were dying. So were Asian governments. And I think the reason was money. The donor countries said, “This is not possible, it's too expensive, the money's not there.” They were concerned with cost containment, resource containment. The African ministers of health were concerned that if this resolution includes access to therapy, I will be asked to do this in my country. I can’t pay for that. They knew the health systems were not functioning well and that health services were lacking. They didn’t have enough healthcare workers. All that was true. But I always thought that this may be true, but let's do something about it. I'm so glad that we started with antiretroviral therapy. I mean, by we, I don't mean UNAIDS, although we were the first ones in Africa to introduce antiretroviral therapy into private projects, one in Uganda, one in Ivory Coast. I'm so glad we didn't wait until the health systems were fixed, because now there are 4 million people in treatment in the developing world. Without treatment, most of them would be dead. So I believe we shouldn’t wait until the system is fixed before acting but try to fix it while you are taking action.
Harden: Following the 1996 meeting, you started trying to do something, as you said, even though the systems weren't fixed, and trying to – to work with the business people and the religious people, and the military services. Will you tell me about the different approaches you took with each one of those, to get support?
Piot: Basically, in many countries, the ministries of health and the public health community did not want to deal with AIDS, so I had to go around them. I was looking for alliances, and I wanted to build these alliances. Working with the military was an important one. It was triggered off my suspicion that UN peacekeepers had possibly spread HIV in Cambodia. Probably some of that is true. I met Kofi Annan, because he was then in charge of peacekeeping operations, and he asked me, what should we do? How do you deal with this? And so that was – so we – we focused first on missions that provide peacekeeping troops. The Ukraine, Zambia, Bangladesh, Sweden, the Netherlands, Ireland--they're big providers of peacekeeping troops. The military, in my experience, is very pragmatic once you convince them of something. They go for it. No discussions, no debates about condoms, they just implement a policy.
I also knew from my experience in Africa that religious organizations, particularly Christian organizations, play an enormous role in providing health care. There, we had a few problems, particularly when it came to HIV prevention. But what I found, also, is that the higher you go up in the hierarchy, the more rigid people become, and more ideological. But the people on the ground are more flexible. You would find condoms in Catholic hospitals, run by sisters who, did not want to talk about condoms but let them be available. They were better than the Pope, both the previous one and the current one. In the business community, I was also looking for allies. I was talking to the pharmaceutical industry, but they were very suspicious, because they knew that I was calling for lower prices, and they didn't like that. For them, Africa is not a market. I think it represents about 2% of the global pharmaceutical market. That's all. So I had to work really hard on them. I used mostly moral arguments. I said, “Look, this is a global epidemic. Do you want to be like tobacco companies, or do you want to be heroes?
Harden: Oh, that's interesting.
Piot: In the end, it worked to a certain extent. For example, Merck, with Ray Gilmartin and Jeff Sterchio, was already there. They were the first ones – though Richard Sykes from Glaxo Wellcome had also decreased the price of AZT a few years before. Merck broke the solidarity front within the pharmaceutical industry, and went for tiered pricing. But that was only in 2000. It took several years.
Harden: How did it take you to get the business community to realize that AIDS was bad for business?
Piot: That took several years, and is still going on, and there Richard Sykes from Glaxo Wellcome, and Bill Roedy from MTV International were really instrumental. I must say, this was primarily an idea of Sally Cowal, my deputy, who had a business background also, besides being a diplomat. And she was married to a businessman. So they started with the Global Business Coalition on AIDS, which was launched at the Commonwealth Summit by Nelson Mandela. It was in Edinburgh. I don't know exactly how we got him on board, because he had not been outspoken about AIDS in his own country. But we brought him to Davos to speak at the World Economic Forum. In those days big pharma had sued Nelson Mandela in South Africa for wanting to introduce generic medicines—this was a PR disaster, of course, so they were looking for a way to get out of bad publicity. Richard Sykes, Nelson Mandela, and myself spoke in a big plenary session at the World Economic Forum, so they could have some direct dialogue.
Harden: And what year was that?
Piot:That was in – I think it was 2000, or it was maybe '98. I'm not certain.
Harden: And this brings us to the – the other question, big question here. Nelson Mandela was a very traditional man, and you were asking him to speak about sex, which is a taboo subject in every culture on Earth. How did he respond, and what got him finally to speak up?
Piot: I discussed this later on with him, because I asked him long before he spoke up about AIDS even though his country was so heavily affected. The first time he spoke about AIDS was not in South Africa, interestingly, but it was in Davos, Switzerland, in an Alpine village for the wealthiest people in the world. He spoke about AIDS and business rationale. But by then he was convinced. In December, in his last World AIDS Day as President of South Africa, he addressed the nation on TV, live, about AIDS. But it was out of a military camp, so the audience was mostly soldiers. I was there next to him. He said that one, he had underestimated the problem, which I accept. In the ANC [African National Congress] there was a strong health constituency, and they had prepared a good plan on AIDS before the liberation from apartheid. He said also that they were concerned about this for electoral reasons, during the first free elections in South Africa. There was a discussion on this apparently within the leadership of the ANC. The conclusion was that too much attention would go to AIDS that could be used against the black majority. He acknowledged that it had been a mistake to ignore AIDS, but he took responsibility for that. That’s why he was not dealing with it. But then the facts and figures came out and his family was also personally affected. One of his sons died from AIDS. Since then, he's been a courageous and great spokesperson for AIDS. Also, at the personal level, he said, “I made a mistake.” Not too many politicians do that.
Harden: This is true.
Piot: Nelson Mandela is the person I admire the most in the world, and he has an incredible charisma, and a great combination of natural authority, but also humility, and that's a unique combination. South Africa was liberated from apartheid, and then comes AIDS. That's really bad luck. It put such a strain on the country.
Harden: This will be a good place to stop, because we need to shift gears here. We'll stop today, and pick up next time. Thank you.
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